KGVO Talk Back Radio with Dennis Bragg and Bob Seidenschwarz, October 26, 2026. Interview with Jennifer Warren.
The Interview
ANNOUNCER: This is KGVO’s Talkback. Join the conversation at 721-1290 or 1-800-568-5309 with producer Nick Christensen and your host, Dennis Bragg.
DENNIS BRAGG: And good morning, everybody. Dennis and Nick back with you. We’ve got a little bit of sunrise pink out there. That’s kind of pretty; it distracted me for a minute as I’m looking out the window. It was a pretty interesting weekend. Did you have an extra hoodie on this morning?
NICK CHRISTENSEN: It actually wasn’t too bad. The frost was on the windshield a little bit, so I had to wait a second to go out and clear it. But no, it wasn’t too bad. It was a nice weekend.
DENNIS BRAGG: This is the first morning on the drive in where I thought, “I should know where my gloves are.” So we’re going to warm up the airwaves, as we have a great topic: data centers. Bob Seidenschwarz is not in the studio, but he’s out on remote, traveling, and took some time out today to join us. Bob, why don’t you go ahead and introduce our guest this morning?
BOB SEIDENSCHWARZ: Oh, it would be my pleasure. But guys, I’ve got to stick it to you a little bit. I’m looking out the window, and the dolphins are jumping in the ocean.
DENNIS BRAGG: See, just stop that Florida stuff. I don’t wanna hear it.
BOB SEIDENSCHWARZ: Eighty degrees and no humidity. It doesn’t get any better. So you can chew on that for just a minute.
DENNIS BRAGG: Okay. Thank you.
BOB SEIDENSCHWARZ: We’ve got Jennifer Warren, who has been a guest of ours, and we’re very grateful. Again, I want to thank her for taking time out, because this is such a big topic. We’ve had numerous discussions, and I don’t know anybody better at dissecting what the opportunities and challenges are. So let’s get right into this. Jennifer, welcome back. You went through and are going to be publishing a pretty extensive paper. There’s video out on this and discussions. So let’s get started with the AI build-out on the infrastructure side and the data side, and specifically hone in on North Texas leadership. This is an epicenter, very similar to Northern Virginia, as the two largest areas where this boom is really taking place. So welcome back again, Jennifer, and let’s start from that perspective.
JENNIFER WARREN: Okay. So what I can say is the US is really a growth engine of the global economy right now, and it’s largely because of this AI infrastructure build-out, which includes energy infrastructure, computer and IT manufacturing, and semiconductor manufacturing. It’s contributing almost half of our GDP growth, which was 2.7 percent in some of the last figures. It’s actually a little bit higher than what gets understood, because when you back out all the imports, it looks lower. We are importing a lot of chips from Taiwan and South Korea, but a portion of that manufacturing is coming back to the United States, and that’s helping boost growth over time as well.
JENNIFER WARREN: And yes, North Texas has been something of an epicenter, because we have a lot of data center developers on the forefront of building the infrastructure where much of this AI technology will be housed. So you’re getting what’s called an AI factory, if you will, and that’s what a lot of the hyperscalers, which are big tech, are spending on. Manufacturing is also contributing considerably to the Texas economy, and we’ve seen that in the data as well. It’s really starting to show through GDP growth.
BOB SEIDENSCHWARZ: So when we’re talking specifically about North Texas, one of the criticisms of data centers is, “Oh, it’s temporary. Once the facilities are built, and we’re promoting jobs, are those jobs going to stick around?” Can you give examples of where we’re seeing the secondary and third-tier growth from these data centers and the infrastructure build-out? I realize we’re talking about different phases, so if you want to walk us through how these are not one-and-done deals. These have extensive, long-term economic implications for our growth.
JENNIFER WARREN: Well, I can give you two examples. There’s the Stargate Abilene data center, which right now has around 1.2 gigawatts of capacity. It’s going to grow. Microsoft is a tenant, and OpenAI. It’s definitely created a boom in construction, and that’s going to go on for some years. But there are a lot of businesses surrounding that which are growing as well.
Talking about the larger ones. There’s one in Louisiana called Hyperion, which is Meta’s data center, and it’s supposed to be 2.3 gigawatts. Just to note, each gigawatt is roughly a $50 billion investment. It’s a huge amount of money, and I think the hyperscalers are going to be spending roughly $800 billion this year, and right now it’s already looking like it could be higher [for next year]. In Louisiana specifically, Meta is contributing considerably, not only to the tax base. For example, teachers had something like a $50,000 bonus because of how it affected the revenue intake of the area. They’re also going to be funding water projects and building their own infrastructure tied to the data center.
That’s because that state and that area particularly want growth. That’s what you’re seeing with these large-scale campuses: they’re largely going to be locating in communities that want the growth. It’s also the case in the San Antonio area, and West Texas is attracting more large-scale developments. Those are what are called frontier markets. And in fact, with some of these data center bans and moratoriums, Texas picks up business, Montana picks up business, as does Nevada, because of the business climate and the availability of fiber and energy. That’s also a big draw in Louisiana, because there are a lot of natural gas resources.
DENNIS BRAGG: That’s interesting. As we continue on this Monday edition of Talkback with Bob Seidenschwarz and also Jennifer Warren, we’re talking data centers. Jennifer, I want to bring AI into the conversation here. Obviously these data centers are used for more than just AI, but that’s a lot of the emphasis. I’m curious because in the last three or four months, since summer, I keep seeing stories and a debate going on in the tech community: are we all going to go with the frontier models, or are people going to have it on their desktop? I think that’s an interesting conversation.
DENNIS BRAGG: It reminds me of the old mainframe debates in the early eighties. Is it going to be all remote, or on the desktop, or a combination? Since we’re still working out where that lands in the coming years, how is that influencing this push toward data center investment?
JENNIFER WARREN: So, two things. The AI build-out consists of not just data center build-outs; it includes the build-out of energy and infrastructure. It includes a lot of R&D, building these frontier models like Anthropic, OpenAI. Google has its own frontier model, Gemini. Meta now has Muse. There’s just a lot happening in that space, and a significant amount of investment going there. But you’re also seeing more AI applications, and the expectation is that that’s where a lot of the future value could be, as businesses start creating around AI technology, using AI technology. You see a lot of that in big tech. They know how to use AI technology and frontier models, right?
You’re seeing service providers around that also creating new value, finding new offerings to help businesses be more efficient, but also finding new business models. For example, something really interesting that’s happening with the data center. If we just call it digital infrastructure, which really reflects what it is, because data centers evolved from commercial real estate. That’s why there are a lot of these developers in Dallas: we have a lot of commercial real estate activity, and it’s a big part of the Dallas economy. So we have this expertise that’s morphed into digital infrastructure development, which is an industrial infrastructure asset, if you will.
Data centers do have cloud activity, but they are also starting to produce what are called tokens, which is really what the frontier models are cranking out when you’re using AI and it’s doing the inference, and people might be using agents. Usually that’s going to be tech people for now.
Now, as far as the device question goes, I interviewed somebody for an upcoming feature that should hit print at the end of the week and be digital probably next week. He thought that, because of the scale required in these big campuses to house all this IT, there’s going to be a lot happening on device. That can be laptop; that can be mobile. But that means data centers could be sited in a lot of different places, because with fiber networks, you have the ability to do that. In other words, data centers don’t have to be sited where all the activity is. There’s also a lot that needs to be close, because of latency and issues that we can’t go into. You can’t really say anything hard and fast at this point, frankly, because there’s so much disruption and churning.
DENNIS BRAGG: It really is interesting, and when you have these larger firms involved, they’re all jockeying for position. Just what Meta has done with Muse this time, and now all of a sudden they’re apparently buddies with Apple again, which was not the case three or four years ago. So it’s fun to watch. We’re going to take another break and continue.
[Break]
DENNIS BRAGG: All right, continuing on Talkback this morning as we talk about data centers this hour. We’ll have the Israeli Consul General coming up at the top of the hour. That’ll be interesting. Bob, go ahead. Why don’t you pick up our conversation with Jennifer Warren?
BOB SEIDENSCHWARZ: As I’m listening to what you’re describing here, it strikes me that this whole discussion is still in its early stages, and people are asking: does somebody have a vision for how this is all going to play out? Or is it going to be the wild, wild west, the gold rush? So, Jennifer, help people understand how early this stage of development is, and is there a master plan, or is there going to be a lot of starts and stops to this process?
JENNIFER WARREN: So we really are early, in a way. If you think about when LLM frontier models really hit the consciousness, it was more like 2023. Then in 2024, you started seeing firms like Energy Transfer saying, “These data centers are going to demand more natural gas.” They started seeing this demand growth in natural gas resources, and in pipelines that can help facilitate that, like the one near Abilene, Stargate, and others out west. But the big takeoff, where it shows up in gross domestic product, is in March 2025, and it has continued because we’ve seen all this investment. So we’re in this investment cycle, right?
JENNIFER WARREN: And the things that help constrain the wild, wild west, because it has been a bit of a wild, wild west, and I’m in Texas, and in West Texas it has been the wild west. We have a huge data center queue that’s getting whittled down significantly for all kinds of reasons, including policy. But capital, money, is a governor, a constraint. The market will whittle things down over time. Energy constraints will also keep things in check, because right now, for most of the new-build data centers, it’s the availability of power that’s attracting those sites. It’s driving power-first strategies ahead of everything else.
And that tells you, right there, that there’s going to be a lot of change in energy over time. The grids are going to get more efficient. We’re going to use resources more efficiently. There’s a lot of legacy inefficiency in grids around the country that’s going to get reworked, and we’re going to get these new grids, if you will, and more innovation because of this technology push that sits within these data centers. So I think you do have natural governors, and the market is going to decide ultimately. Even with policy constraints in places, over time, this is how the world is changing.
JENNIFER WARREN: For example, there was an aluminum smelter, and I talked about it at the University of Montana. It had a lot of the jobs and industry in the community. Well, it went away in 2008. Alcoa shut it down, and was remediating the land, and sold it to a developer that bought it in 2021. Now, some of the existing power assets, which used to be coal and were shut down, there are going to be new natural gas-fired plants, which are very efficient and much cleaner than coal and other resources. There’s going to be an advanced manufacturing campus nearby, adjacent to the Samsung chip plant and near the Austin tech ecosystem and cluster.
So you see some of this activity naturally go where these clusters develop, and some of these clusters are established. We have a manufacturing and semiconductor hub in North Texas. It’s evolving. We also have this in Austin. Look at Elon Musk’s Terafab and Tesla in Austin. So you have these things naturally developing.
If you think about it like this: AI in the data center is using high-performance computing power. We’re using the power of computation and digitalization to drive more business, to do things more efficiently. And yes, there will be some reduction to some employment, but those jobs are going to be high-paying as well. So it’s just this evolving economy, is how I see it.
DENNIS BRAGG: I think that’s interesting too, because you mentioned aluminum. The Northwest, especially during the sixties, seventies, and eighties, was one of the leading regions when it came to aluminum production. We had Columbia Falls, we had Kettle Falls. They were all over the place, and it was largely driven by the relatively cheap power we got off the BPA grid, like Grand Coulee and all of the dams. So the market definitely followed where those resources were. Interesting comparison there. All right, we’re going to take a break.
[Break]
DENNIS BRAGG: Okay, we’re back on Talkback, our conversation about data centers, the AI build-out, and the whole kit and caboodle here. Jennifer Warren is on with us, author and consultant, and Bob Seidenschwarz. I’ll get there eventually, Bob. I’m sorry, I’m overthinking it now. That’s the problem. Go ahead. You had our next question here, and then we’ll get to some calls.
BOB SEIDENSCHWARZ: Jennifer, you mentioned the word energy several times. What is, and who is, this energy, in terms of where it comes from and what it’s going to have to require to meet all the parts of the discussion you’re bringing up here on the show?
JENNIFER WARREN: So the energy conversation is a huge thing, but what I can say is that were it not for the shale revolution, we would not be having this AI infrastructure build-out, or AI’s ability to scale and be this great part of GDP. The shale revolution brought all these new resources, oil and gas, around the country, and a lot of infrastructure was built. I can speak to Texas: Energy Transfer and others have really built out the infrastructure that is supporting a lot of the upcoming data center growth.
There will be a lot more natural gas plants built in the future, but they’re actually one of the most efficient ways to produce energy. We do have a lot of renewables scattered around the country, and a high concentration in Texas, but those are dependent on weather. And people say, “Well, we can use batteries,” but batteries have limited lifespans, and these AI campuses need 24/7 firm power. That’s why you’re seeing more natural gas coming online now and in the future. There is a considerable build-out for firm power.
I see shale and the foundation it laid as chapter one. Now we’re in chapter two, and the grids are going to get a makeover over time. I wrote about that about a year ago, and I think this is really true. With the features I have coming out for the November DCEO Energy Edition, you’ll really see how one power producer, Vistra, is thinking about it and doing it, including extending the lives of existing nuclear power plants. There are a lot of efficiencies that can be gained with the resources we have already. Were it not for this AI infrastructure build-out, we would not be getting all this innovation in how energy is produced, moved, transported, everything. So it is kind of creating, you know—
DENNIS BRAGG: Okay, perfect. Let’s get to a couple of our callers. Jeff is on the phone. Jeff, good morning. You’re on Talkback.
JEFF: Good morning, Jennifer. Good morning, Montana. It’s good to be able to chat with one of my favorite two energy-related folks, you and Robert Bryce, who’s been on the show too. You’re obviously well informed, and I really appreciate these opportunities. Here in Montana, it seems like there are really two things to deal with. There are all sorts of things around infrastructure and grid upgrades, but the primary thing for us is, first of all, resource use.
There’s been a lot of hype and/or maybe a lot of legitimate concern, primarily about water for cooling and electricity for powering the plants. I know electricity is one of those consumer-regulated things. But if you could talk to the use of those resources, I think it feeds into my second question, which is the ulterior motives of some of the people, particularly hostile nations, who want to reduce our ability to fully participate in this revolution so that they can leap ahead, and gain on us, and keep us on the defense. So if you could address those two things, basically resource use and—
JENNIFER WARREN: Geopolitics.
JEFF: Any reactions?
DENNIS BRAGG: Go ahead, Jennifer.
JENNIFER WARREN: Yes. Okay. On the efficiency side, there’s a lot of R&D going on in more efficient chips, more efficient networking, energy utilization in the racks, energy between the data center and the grid, everywhere. A lot of these new data centers are closed-loop systems, which use very little water to speak of. In Arizona, for example, there’s a huge Taiwan Semiconductor fab and a lot of data centers. It’s a tier-one data center market, and a lot of the data centers there are air-cooled because of the lack of water. So there’s a lot being worked on in the data center, because they all know they have to have this social license to operate. I’m worried less about that, and in a way I think the public is behind on their understanding of how the innovation is happening in that area of efficiency.
JENNIFER WARREN: It’s all about efficiency, in fact, going forward. That happened with shale, too. Shale has become more efficient over time. You have this period of, “Oh, we’ve got to do this differently. We’ve got to use fewer resources.” So I think that’s what’s happening here too. Absolutely.
Now, on the geopolitics of this, yes, there is this race, no doubt about it. But here’s what’s really interesting: we’re the largest market for AI technology and AI infrastructure build-out. A lot of that has to do with our amazing energy resources, our innovation, our business leaders, our entrepreneurial culture, our markets. We have all these factors that come together that allow us to grow, and we don’t have the heavy hand of government telling everybody what to do, right? Some of these bans and moratoriums are that, but I think there’s also some hedging, just to try to…
[Data centers] create a lot of revenue for the state and local economy, and states and local economies need to figure out how to make this an asset and a benefit to the community, as opposed to making the data center a bogeyman, because I don’t see it like that. So I think we are leading, and I think we need to just keep doing what we’re doing, but also do some of the smart things and pay attention to definite hostile actors.
DENNIS BRAGG: Good point, Jennifer. It seems like every time a new manufacturing operation comes along, local governments have to deal with how this compares and what it replaces. So, real fascinating. All right, we’re going to take another break. We’ll get back to Talkback on KGVO. Let’s go ahead and get to our calls. We’ve got Harry on the phone. Good morning, Harry, you are on Talkback. Go ahead, sir.
HARRY: Yeah, good morning, folks. Jennifer, you talked about the investment and the infrastructure building up, but I just look at what happened back in Eastern Montana. When they talked about the fracking, they had all this money invested. They built up this infrastructure. These little towns popped up. And then when they quit drilling, now they’re producing oil, but those jobs all went away, and so did most of those little towns. So I’m looking at this, unless these data centers will maybe have their own power plant, which would have some people there. But other than that, I don’t see a whole lot of jobs. Just because there’s money being pumped in doesn’t necessarily mean there are going to be long-term jobs. I could see just short-term jobs.
DENNIS BRAGG: All right. What about that, Jennifer? What about the numbers of jobs? I’ve seen that as one of the parts of this debate.
JENNIFER WARREN: How I would answer that is, sure, there are cases where there’s boom-bust, and a lot of it depends on what you’re siting. Are you putting up a power plant? Are you putting up a manufacturing plant? What are you standing up? All I can say is I think over time the market decides that. I can’t speak to little towns that come and go, but there is an example in Childress, Texas, where they developed a solar farm that just sat idle for a long time, building up what’s called congestion costs. And now there’s an AI infrastructure build-out happening there where they’re consuming that solar.
You’re getting at stranded assets, and some of the data center developers are starting to move toward those. In fact, the one in my upcoming feature, in North Dakota, they’ve built some large-scale campuses there, and they’re using some of the stranded wind resources. The ratepayers got a $45 million credit. I think that’s also what’s happening in Louisiana, where some of the underutilized natural gas resources are being used. That’s why there are a lot of data centers being developed in West Texas: same issue, underutilized gas resources that come along with oil production. So I think you’re just seeing this reworking, and there’s going to be a lot of jobs surrounding these campuses being built. Some will stay, and quite a few will stay. It’s just the nature of how work is changing, how the economy is changing.
DENNIS BRAGG: Let’s go ahead and get—
HARRY: I’d just like to—
DENNIS BRAGG: Let’s move on.
HARRY: Okay.
DENNIS BRAGG: Hang on. I want to get Katherine on, because I’m trying to get in as many calls as we can. Katherine, go ahead, and let’s cut right to your question for Jennifer Warren here on Talkback.
KATHERINE: I want to ask about a corollary aspect that you briefly mentioned. You mentioned nuclear power. What about the idea of small thorium reactors, privately developed by these big data center businesses to provide for their power sources? Montana and Idaho have thousands of tons of thorium in the Lemhi Pass area that could be used for this. Is this a possibility to alleviate some of the needs for power?
DENNIS BRAGG: Thanks, Katherine.
JENNIFER WARREN: I can speak to—I know there’s one developer doing these more micro-type, small-scale nuclear modules, and even smaller. They’re called Oklo. They’re not using thorium, but I’m familiar with thorium, and there’s a lot in development with that, for sure. But right now, because of the cost and the requirement for scaled power, that’s why you’re seeing a lot of investment in extending the lives of existing assets. Building a new nuclear plant is very expensive. It’s hugely expensive.
But there will be more nuclear, and definitely there will be some at smaller scales. There’s a firm called Diamondback that is going to be siting some of these smaller Oklo-type reactors, or modules, in the oil patch, because of the need for electricity. So I think you will see some of that. How this evolves is still really up to the market. What can the market sustain? Who’s going to do the R&D investment in these things? That’s how I’d answer that.
DENNIS BRAGG: You do have that research project down at INL, and then of course the one up at Malmstrom, to find out some of those questions. Bob, go ahead. I’ve got time if you want to throw a question in before we go to break.
BOB SEIDENSCHWARZ: Just very quickly. Harry’s point is a common point that people make, which is, what happens when this goes away? Our history has always been uneven, and this is a situation which is probably going to become even more so because of how dynamic it is. Jennifer’s mentioned this several times: the dynamism of all of this is the innovation that takes place. While this may work here, it’s not going to work over there. So this is going to be USA creativity on steroids going forward, and some of it’s going to work, and some of it absolutely will not pencil out as a return on investment.
DENNIS BRAGG: Jennifer, I’m going to have you—let’s go to break. I’ll have you respond.
[Break]
DENNIS BRAGG: And we’re back with Talkback with Jennifer Warren. One more segment here. We’ve got the Israeli Consul General coming up at the top of the hour. That should be interesting. Before we went to break, Jennifer, Bob was also asking about the approach where one size does not necessarily fit all. What may be applicable in Louisiana or Texas, especially because it’s resource-driven, may not work in Montana, or it may be vice versa. What about that diversity of investment, and what we’re seeing develop here?
JENNIFER WARREN: So this idea of moving to power is one issue with the AI infrastructure build-out, but there are other types of businesses happening because of this. I mentioned some of the semiconductor fabs in Texas and Arizona. There’s also a lot of activity in Ohio. There are memory chip plants being built by Micron, and SK Hynix is going to start building some fabs in the United States. So you do see some of this manufacturing reshoring, and from that, it will also spread out and build other businesses. It’s been called ‘building out the backbone of the next industrial revolution,’ and I think that’s kind of what’s happening. People are focused and worried about energy, but I think the market is going to be the governor. Capital’s going to be the governor.
There are a lot of new approaches being developed, even to meet the constraints, I’ve noticed, within this AI infrastructure build-out. There are firms that are evolving to figure out, “Okay, where can I add value, and how can I capture some of that value?” And those are new jobs. These are new jobs and new things that didn’t exist before. One of the things to think about is that whatever happened before, it’s changing, and it may not happen again. There’s going to be new jobs, and there’s going to be a churn of the workforce. In fact, I’m going to a whole workforce event after this, and they’re going to be discussing that. What do we need to do? How do we retool ourselves? How do we take advantage of new opportunities, because they’re emerging? So I think it’s just creating its own energy, if you will.
DENNIS BRAGG: Bob, we’ve got time. It looks like we have one more question. Go ahead.
BOB SEIDENSCHWARZ: I was going to say, this is not your father’s industrial revolution. When you’re talking about reshoring, everything is going to be done in the manner that Jennifer’s describing, using various degrees of artificial intelligence for the very purpose of being competitive, because the rest of the world is not going to sit still either.
DENNIS BRAGG: Now, we’ve got about two minutes. Any parting thoughts, Jennifer?
JENNIFER WARREN: Okay. I’ll just give you this example. This is interesting, and it came out in Meta’s earnings call. Zuckerberg was saying a large reason the Muse rollout happened in the United States is that we have all the infrastructure, if you will. We have the resources. We have the ability to build the AI infrastructure that will house this greater computational power and technology. That’s why they’re not building it out in the rest of the world right now, because there’s not the capacity. Compute capacity is king right now, and that is the data center.
JENNIFER WARREN: So I think you will see a lot of innovation in that space. Part of the innovation is the scale that’s happening, because this IT tech, the guts of the data center, is very expensive. But you’ll see other things in the future too, which gets at data centers of various sizes performing different types of activities, including cloud, for our Netflix streaming and everything. So I think it’s a very dynamic time, and you can’t really say one thing or point to one thing or even shoot one thing in the foot.
DENNIS BRAGG: Well, the thing I’ll be watching, you talk about the reshoring, and I think that’s an interesting conversation for another day, because the cost of equipment is so terrible now with chips and hard drives. If you wanna innovate, if you’re a business or anything that depends on the other end of this compute picture, there’s a lot to cope with, and I’d love to see those prices come down. Hard drives alone are twice or more what I paid just at the beginning of the year. So, very fascinating.
DENNIS BRAGG: Jennifer, we appreciate your conversation, and thank you for your expertise and everything. Real quick, is there anything coming up we should watch? You mentioned an article coming up. Where can we read more?
JENNIFER WARREN: On my site, conceptelemental.com, I will be posting… The print edition comes out this week, and I will have a PDF available on my website. Then the digital versions of these two main features will be coming out around November 3rd and 10th. I also have a Substack called @moreelemental, where I also put work, so if you look there, I will start putting things up. I will have a preview going online probably tomorrow, after this AI workforce conference. That’s where you can find everything. So give me a day or two to get things up.
DENNIS BRAGG: We’ll give you a little time to work with it. Jennifer, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate it very much.
JENNIFER WARREN: Thanks for having me.
Video references. First video previews trends feature upcoming and second is an overview of the economic impact of the buildout.